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Ideas
This page has facts that are stale, obsolete, or grossly outdated. Please update this page with newer information. |
NOTE: These are just possibilities. We won't be implementing everything here.
Commentary may include personal comments by developers.
Contents
Editing this page
Feel free to make changes and updates to this page whenever possible. If you have any questions, feel free to ask for help. If you wish to make major changes to this page (i.e. remove large amounts of old ideas), please warn us ahead of time.
Adding ideas
- Please remember to make sure your idea isn't already here or on the Rejected Ideas page.
- Flag ideas should be placed on Flag Ideas, not here.
- Add a row to the appropriate category (at the bottom, please) and fill it in with your idea.
- Sign your idea in the third column with three tildes: ~~~
- Put the submission date in the fourth column
- Describe in full and make sense!
- Leave the status column white and fill it with (Unknown).
Adding commentary
- Precede your comment with an asterisk: *
- Sign your comment with four tildes: ~~~~
- Be nice, polite, and constructive.
- Contribute something when you comment. Saying whether or not you like an idea is pointless if you don't explain yourself.
Cleaning up
To help keep this page current, old ideas should be removed when they're implemented (after each stable release, hence the "SVN" status). If you spot any ideas that were implemented prior to the latest stable release of BZFlag, please remove it.
My few ideas
So hi I am Vytautas (vytautas1987@yahoo.com) Some stupid some maybe good I just write them all.
Allow custom tank skins
It would be fun if players would be able to use custom, original images and colors of their tank. Or maybe clans then would be able to have something like military markings on tanks. As disadvantage it wold create more network loads in online games before game start because everyone will have to download all custom skins.
Main thing I want to say that now one color tanks are not very beautiful. And this my suggestion was just idea how to improve this.
Tank simulation mode
Maybe this is quite different way then now and almost idea for new game. But I suggest to create game modification (MOD) which allows simulation mode not arcade like now. So I talk about:
- realistic tank models maybe from WW2 or maybe from nowadays or even both.
- tank skins, models
- real technical parameters
- realistic gun/damage system
- different caliber guns with different damage.
- armor is not same in from of tank and on sides.
- after engine damage tank can not move and etc.
- much more realistic physics engine.
- Tank can destroy buildings, trees...
- Acceleration
- controls like from real tank (only this kind of realistic control implemented still would give a lot of fun)
- not arrows (two separate accelerators for left and right side of wheals)
- separate turret control
More game modes
- "Battlefiled 1942"-like mode where teem have to capture all checkpoints on the map
- Destroy/Defend target mode
- Escort/Destroy truck convoy
The list
Implemented as a server-side plug-in | |
SVN (Implemented and will be in next release) | |
In progress (Implementing) | |
Good Idea | |
Idea | |
Vague, not understood, or in need of work | |
Rejected, but can be implemented as a server plug-in | |
Rejected | |
Unknown (new) |
General/Gameplay
Idea | Status | Commentary | Submitter | Date |
---|---|---|---|---|
Add support for 5 (or more) button mice | Great Idea | (Unknown) | (Old) | |
Better physics | In progress |
|
Unknown | (Old) |
SELF-DESTRUCT BLAST RADIUS: Self Destruct (delete key) should have a blast radius similar to Shock Wave, perhaps larger. If you get shot during the self-destruct count down, that should also trigger the same blast. If I gotta go, I want to take someone with me. | (Unknown) |
|
BearRiver | (Old) |
3-second (or however long) 'invulnerability' for incoming tanks - but they can't shoot | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Ability to turn off ricochet for laser flag but allow ricochet for bullets... or let them bounce only n times.. OR implement mirror buildings/walls. Should go for some interesting self-kills when combined with the no-radar/bullet bounce | Idea | MORPH | (Old) | |
Smart LockOn for GM - won't lock on to your teammates (configurable in server) | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Small jumps | Idea | MORPH | (Old) | |
Server option for genocide flag - if you're killed while you have it, your team dies :^) | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
for broadband or LAN connections - voice chat for teams | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Tank avatars (uploadable tank images) - have to think about shapes, though - someone could make a 1x1x1 pixel tank - that would suck - or a tank that looks like a building or pyramid. Clients don't have to accept downloading of avators (just view other tanks in default mode). Or just s-e-l-e-c-t from a certain number of predefined avatars that could come with the bzflag distribution. Or client provides a URL to download their avatar (saves server bandwidth). | Idea | *Might not be implemented. Requires discussion; we may want to consider making the computer force a minimum size or something similar.
|
MORPH | (Old) |
'Kamikaze' option for players - can take someone out by suicide | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Server option: everyone is radar-stealthed by default unless you get a 'radar' flag. You can still see all buildings, pyramids, teleports, and arena walls, though. | Good idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Option for above: if you pick up GM or Laser, you're visible on radar to everyone whether they've got a radar flag or not | Good idea | MORPH | (Old) | |
Selectable 'ricochet' fire - hold down shift key or something and your bullets won't ricochet | Idea | MORPH | (Old) | |
Server option - tanks only have a certain number of times they can jump (gets reset when you get killed) | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Multiple-shields (server option for shield flags, or can be random - can get hit x number of times) | Idea | *This is pretty much moot now. It's been shot down by the devs at least once, and a similar effect can be achieved by setting _shieldFlight to a very small number. This effectively provides as many hits as _maxFlagGrabs. L4m3r | MORPH | (Old) |
Configurable 'radarless' and/or 'blind' zones in the arena - can't see what's in there on radar or via visuals | Idea | MORPH | (Old) | |
Tank collisions - why can tanks drive through each other? Weird. | Good Idea | *Lag could be a big problem here. If implemented, it must be impossible for two tanks to get stuck to each other. L4m3r | MORPH | (Old) |
When tanks collide - great opportunity to implement tank damage concept, especially if one of them is moving especially fast, or has momentum flag, etc. Can push a tank off a building if your pushing them from their side. | Idea |
|
Morph | (Old) |
If a tank explodes right next to another tank, the other tank can be destroyed or get damaged | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Skins or views- In-tank mode, bumper mode, out-of-cab mode, chase mode. | (Unknown) | MORPH | (Old) | |
Weapon extension packs. | (Unknown) | *Huh? Explain, please. L4m3r | iPod | (Old) |
The ability to choose tanks, but they all die at one shot. maybe the jump height, speed, turn speed, acceleration, size can be preset. | (Unknown) |
|
iPod | (Old) |
Option to choose different kinds of tanks. Different tanks could be weighted with different strengths and weaknesses. (almost like having a default flag). Would also need some form of health/damage status measurement, not just single hits. For example, there could be a larger, heavily armored tank that has powerful weapons, but moves slowly, versus a small, light, fast tank which is difficult to hit, but very low armor to protect from hits. | (Unknown) | Cue | (Old) | |
What about a radar that only covers visible areas (don't passing through buildings/pyramids) ? This would leads to more placement tactics). | (Unknown) | K'limero | (Old) | |
Always random respawn. Currently in CTF games first respawn is at own base. This can be abused by leaving and rejoining to get near base. This leave/rejoing trick is considered to be a mild form of cheating by many. Always random respawn would make it useless. | (Unknown) |
|
abli | (Old) |
multiple (3?) jump stengths mini, normal, max...just the thing to confuse the opponents that expect one and you're off doing the other. | (Unknown) | kitchen | (Old) | |
Anti camping. The ability to add "no camping zones" to areas of a map or to the entire map. Campers would be messaged that they're in a no camping zone, better start moving and have a prescribe number of seconds to move away or die. If a player returns to the same NCZ (no camping zone) and receives x warnings then he's disconnected. NCZs could be marked by a different color shade from a "normal" spot and could be exempt to a single team (like at their flag base). It's just a rough idea. | (Unknown) |
|
pherris | (Old) |
Shield Flag Changes: Give Shield flag a radius, and draw it like a moving less opaque blue shockwave. Any tanks inside the shield radius would be protected, until the shield got hit a certain number of times. | (Unknown) | YHARG | (Old) | |
At our company, we instituted a voluntary policy of dropping flags after 1 kill. Prevents slaughters and keeps things rolling more. It'd be great to be able to have the game do this for us, plus I'd love to see it turned on at external sites. | (Unknown) | TomMatelich | (Old) | |
Server option: default powers -- flag(s) that everyone in the game automatically has (this wouldn't count as holding a flag). For example, the current Jumping option would == including Jumping as a default power. | (Unknown) | NebNamwen | (Old) | |
Shot Aiming. Basically the center shot aim box could be moved left and right as far as the edge of the view window. (This would be enabled by default.) If the map is a vertical one a server option could be enabled so that vertical aiming could be enabled (using the same concept as horizontal aiming.) The aiming would be automatically centered by a button or key. These options could be mapped to a second joystick access, mouse scroll wheel or keyboard buttons. | (Unknown) | Lateral shooting would basically be the same as a rotating turret, and this idea has been shot down many times. Vertical shooting has been poo-pooed also. L4m3r 01:45, 3 July 2007 (EDT) | NN | 6/20/07 |
Make a tele porter along the game sides that would tele port into other games running on their own servers. This would enable larger more collaborative game board linked together that would distribute loads across multiple servers speeding up game play and making for interesting possibilities. | (Unknown) | Waban* | 7/31/07 | |
Make a 'fog of war' where the a player's radar only shows a certain distance of the area around them and their teammates'. | (Unknown) |
|
Forrest | 8/19/07 |
Speed of light becomes a server variable. Tanks travelling near the speed of light have an increased mass and appear distorted from a stationary observer. Lasers travel at speed of light, not at infinite speed. If a tank is travelling near the speed of light, the colour of the tank is redshifted or blueshifted. | (Unknown) | jftsang | 14/03/08 | |
I am of this view point that games can also teach something apart from entertaining us all and being an Environment conscious student,i plan to implement some changes which can teach us all some lessons !.As in its a WAR based game,i.e TANKS... so what i propose is to find the pollutants in the game ..say a Tank which is continuously bombarding must trade off with loosing some points,because it is pouring harmful gases in environment,this is in no way decreasing excitement in game,perhaps will ask gamers to be more strategic,in compromise to that bullets/bombs provided will be increased .. loss of vegetation,polluting water etc must be punished...Global Warming issues can be implemented too .. this is just a rough idea ,if asked proper description will be provided by me. I am ready to work on existing ideas also,its just the one i proposed..looking forward for a mentor..thanking you.. Rajan Vaish IRC : vaish GTALK : vaish.rajan@gmail.com | (Unknown) | Vaish Rajan | Date Unknown |
UI
Idea | Status | Commentary | Submitter | Date |
---|---|---|---|---|
Make option to show previous players list | Idea | (Unknown) | (Old) | |
Make ALL server options available from the menus | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Separate windows for player messages & server messages | Good idea. | MORPH | (Old) | |
Message log | Good idea. | MORPH | (Old) | |
Send message to everyone 'but' specified player (crosses team boundaries, or not) | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
The ability to see what the world is like before connecting to the server. | (Unknown) | iPod | (Old) | |
Multi-monitor support (i.e., radar on one screen, window on another, chat/event log on a third) | (Unknown) | bhtooefr | (Old) | |
Make a part in bzflag to put up a real server. 1st screen has the flags you want, next page is to find the MAP file that you created on your hard drive, next page pick if you want jumping etc. | (Unknown) | Colin | (Old) | |
Add a rear view mirror | (Unknown) | Sparky1 | 1/1/2008 |
Technical
Idea | Status | Commentary | Submitter | Date |
---|---|---|---|---|
Better network handling | In progress | (Unknown) | (Old) | |
Better robot AI | Idea |
|
(Unknown) | (Old) |
Better positioning of tanks | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Serious multithreaded design - shouldn't lock up interface while looking for servers, or doing anything else. This program is way-unstable on Windows | In Progress |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Some type of BZFlag GUID* to ban players who cheat - won't accept players who disable their GUID, etc.
*Global Unique Identifier, sort of like an IP addrss, but permanent. Usually a number. Problem occurs when you lose your GUID (have to reformat your HD, etc. How do you keep someone from hacking their GUID, or setting up a modified BZFlag server for identity theft, etc. |
(Unknown) |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
To prevent cheating - the server determines what flags & abilities each tank has (possible?) | In Progress |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
BZFlag for mac in separate data and application files. | (Unknown) | iPod | (Old) | |
J2ME client (allows one to play on a cell phone), would use radar | (Unknown) | bhtooefr | (Old) | |
Special 'open source' BZFlag version (server and client) which is guaranteed to be compatible with all other BZFlag versions. | (Unknown) |
|
Orca | (Old) |
Game Modes, Team Play, and Scoring
Idea | Status | Commentary | Submitter | Date |
---|---|---|---|---|
Tounament mode | Idea |
|
(Unknown) | (Old) |
When you shoot someone on your own team, instead of both of you blowing up, neither is destroyed, and their score goes up one, while your's goes down one. This would make teamkilling impossible and greatly discourage traitors as well. | Idea |
|
Trigger Happy Nerd | (Old) |
A new gameplay mode- Takes two to tank. One to control the (rotating) turret, the other drives. KIA switches positions. "Teamplay" but all in one tank. | (Unknown) |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Turret mode, If enabled by the server (Can be manditory with automatic grouping). One user drives and the other shoots, Turret mode tanks get double points (But onyl take one from the target). lost double points if killed. Have double ammo, And controllable speed (Max = _tankSpeed * 2 Min = _tankSpeed). Plus it takes 2 shots to kill a turret mode tank. Points gained and lost by turret tanks are divided evenly between the users, Unless the server is all turret mode, in h which case two users are displayed as one. | (Unknown) | Dogbert | (Old) | |
Ability for a team to vote to 'banish' someone from their team | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
There should be a game of cops and robbers. The teams can change after about 10 mins or so. | (Unknown) | iPod | (Old) | |
A special FFA Game mode "Team by Flags". This means, same Flag = same Team, so if there is a Tank with Rapid fire, and you pick up Rapid fire, you are automatically handled as Team member (this means, killing the other Tank with Rapid fire will be handled the same way as when killing a team member). YHARG: Funky idea: what about a game mode where teams shared flag abilities? Like, each player on a team's flag applies to the whole team. This could make for some interesting combos... | (Unknown) | Agonizer | (Old) | |
Make life trickier for the Rogue Team; with a mix of Rogues and Colored Teams, the Rogues have more targets. This should also change the effect of the Masquerade flag - perhaps your tank is invisible to Rogues (like Cloaking)? | (Unknown) | NickGrim | (Old) | |
A server option to make deaths not affect your score unless they were self-inflicted/team (the method used by many online games). This would encourage more aggressive play, because it's worth going out and blasting. As it is, you've got a very good chance by just phantoming/OOing out of the way and keeping you score at zero to stay in the top three places! It would also help fix the rather unfair situation of spawning just below a building on which someone is GM-camping...there's pretty much no way to escape, so you lose a point. | (Unknown) | LionsPhil | (Old) | |
Don't show individual score in CTF games. This might help teamplay as it reduces the incentive to run around as if it would be FFA. | (Unknown) | abli | (Old) | |
Give points to the player how captures flag in CTF. (Say, around 4 or so) After all, it is often a bigger job than killing someone. | (Unknown) |
|
abli | (Old) |
Ducati/Freestyle "Roles" mode: Make a game mode where players are presented with a list of flag choices (limitable to a few roles, if wanted) at respawn or connect time, and are forced to use this flag for the remainder of their connection/tank life. This would be really useful in the case of stealth vs. seer, where you could choose to be stealth or seer, but couldn't switch between them. Another idea would be high speed vs. quick turn. Or steamroller vs. machine gun... Team play would have the interesting effect of people banding together and people with each role on the team. Especially in stealth vs. seer, where a seer team member could warn the team about enemies! There would be no team flags/bases. | (Unknown) |
|
YHARG | (Old) |
New game called tag were someone is it and they shoot someone else and there it and ect. | (Unknown) | Supermatthew | (Old) | |
Also a new game called "Hide and seek" were everyone is clocked(think thats it, were you don't see them on radar) except one who is it. he needs to find someone and shoot them then hese cloked and who was shot is not. Also when someone is shot there sent back to Ground zero( 0X, 0Y, 0Z ) so they can't shoot who ever just shot them. | (Unknown) | Supermatthew | (Old) | |
"Cat" game: when a player dies, he/she respawns automaticaly, after 3 secs or so. When they have respawned 9 times, they can no longer spawn, and are observers. The one who lasts the longest wins. Games are timed. | (Unknown) | (Unknown) | 4/20/2007 | |
A switch-teams function that allows you to swap teams during a game without losing score. | (Unknown) | jftsang | 10/11/2007 | |
Rogue team - A mode in which rogues may TK and capture flag. | (unknown) |
|
jftsang | 10/11/2007 |
A Sport Mode: I noticed that there is a lot of recently created cool sport maps. In those maps a team flag is used as a "ball", and bases are used as "goals". I think that there is even more potential for great maps if there would be a game mode where a bullet behaves like a "ball".In that mode when a game starts, or right after a score, a bullet hovers over a specified location (like the center of the map) and no one can shoot. The first tank that touches the bullet "has the ball", in other words only that tank can shoot. If a tank that "has the ball" shoots it, shooting for that tank is disabled, likewise, if a tank is shot by a bullet that tank does not die, but instead it "has the ball", this allows for passing and interception. A tank that "has the ball" should be indcated somehow, perhaps by a unique flag. The "ball" has the color of the last tank that shot it. A new object would have to be created (perhaps called a goal zone?) that resembles a teleporter that results in a ctf if a bullet encounters it. Or instead of a specific object an area/volume on the map could be designated as a "goal zone" which would give more freedom in designing objects that behave like goals. The score would go to the team that has the same color as the bullet that encountered the "goal zone". All tanks would have the Steam Roller power. a tank that touches another tank would not be killed only if that tank is higher at the touch. If a tank that "has the ball" is killed before he can shoot the "ball" then the bullet appears at the tanks position of death and travel at the speed and in the direction the tank had at that point. Maybe a provision could be made where the number of "balls" could be set at a number greater than one to allow for more complex games. | (Unknown) | Sparky1 | 1/21/2008 |
Maps, Mapping, and BZW
Idea | Status | Commentary | Submitter | Date |
---|---|---|---|---|
Materials that don't allow OO and PZ to go through | Idea |
|
(Unknown) | (Old) |
Differently-shaped teleporters (circles, triangles, etc.) | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
360 degree teleports - hit a spot on the ground or in the air from any direction and you teleport | Idea | MORPH | (Old) | |
Configurable random teleporters - teleports to a different location every time | Idea |
|
MORPH | (Old) |
Triggers in levels | (Unknown) |
|
Dragonstar | (Old) |
wraparound world - radar remains centered on your current position. Internally, objects leaving the north border reappear to the south, but from the user's radar / visible perspective, you just see to the horizon. I believe this is how the original Battlezone worked. There are some implications: laser would need a range limit. | (Unknown) | nsayer | (Old) | |
As a generalization to the wraparound world concept, how about the option of making a map based on geometry that’s non-Euclidean, for example spherical or hyperbolic. Jumping/flying, the shape of the tanks/objects, and bullet trajectories would also be affected by this global geometry. It would be like a world that has a high gravitational field, or a world situated near a wormhole. | (Unknown) | Sparky1 | 5/21/2007 | |
Get rid of the PZ flag and replace it w/ special telporters that do the same thing (they could be called "zoners", and should probably look different from regular teleporters). This way superflags, badflags, and team flags can all be zoned (without needing an exception to the restricition against using more than one flag at a time). The above idea of other zoned objects would play a major role here. Zoned flags can only be picked up by zoned tanks. Flags can spawn zoned, or become zoned by being carried by an unzoned tank that becomes zoned by going through a zoner. Likewise, a zonedflag becomes unzoned when a zoned tank carries it through a zoner. Unzoned tanks respond to shots from zoned flags the same way zoned tanks respond to shots from unzoned flags. For example: when zoned, L, WG, geno, and GM do not kill unzoned tanks (zoned GM will still lock onto any tank, and zoned geno would still kill every tank on the same team as the zoned tank that was shot). Although, flags like SW and SB would still kill any tank regardless of thier zoning status. As an extension to this idea one team in a CTF game could start out zoned, i.e. thier base is zoned and they initially spawn zoned. In order for the unzoned team to capture the zoned team's flag, the flag must become unzoned, and vice versa for the zoned team. This way new possibilities exist, like two bases could be superimposed as long as one base is zoned and the other is not. Another possible extension is different kinds of zones (w/ corespondingly different kinds of zoners) for CTF involving more than two teams. The relationship between differently zoned tanks would be the same as the relationship between zoned and unzoned tanks. | (Unknown) | Sparky1 | 5/21/2007 | |
Change the workings of zones such that a zone may have its own server variables (I wanted to make a Death Castle against a Holy Castle). | (Unknown) | jftsang | 1/12/2007 |
Server Options, Administration, Plug-ins, and the Plug-in API
Idea | Status | Commentary | Submitter | Date |
---|---|---|---|---|
Ability to configure server to turn somethings off or on depending on number of players - for instance, turn off ricochet after a certain number of players are connected, turn off GM & laser if a certain number of players aren't playing (GM & Laser with 2 players is kinda ridiculous) | Idea | MORPH | (Old) | |
Allow custom-made weapons with a Object-Oriented scripting language (sorta like Liero AI uses: http://helios.et.put.poznan.pl/~sskowron/liero/index.html ) | (Unknown) | Dragonstar | (Old) | |
Preset world weapons that can be fired manually by admins from within BzFlag. | (Unknown) |
|
Dogbert | (Old) |
When someone joins a server with this option enabled, and they have their team set to “automatic” they are joined as an observer. This would be purely for convenience, but none the less an idea. It would be useful for league servers and things. This would require the server to receive the preferred team choice from the client. | (Unknown) | me1 | 3/21/08 |
Graphics & Sound
Idea | Status | Commentary | Submitter | Date |
---|---|---|---|---|
Sounds of tanks moving. | (Unknown) | iPod | (Old) | |
Have different tank death scenes for the dying tank point of view. I realize there is some time needed for one to die and respawn, but the jumping effect one sees when killed irritates me to no end! I'd be happier if all faded to black or white or orange and had text across the screen saying ""respawning... please wait"" :) Also, when killed and your tank was moving toward a building, it just falls right thru it until it hits the ground.. wrong physics there! Splatter or tumble or shatter or something :) | (Unknown) | Robi | (Old) | |
Custom color schemes for rogue players. The turret and body components can be chosen to be one of a predefined set of colors (e.g. red, yellow, black, white, blue, green, purple...). The game prohibits choosing a color scheme that matches a team scheme (e.g. red turret with red body) and the limited set stops someone choosing a shade which is nearly a team color (e.g. 0xFE0000 instead of 0xFF0000) (and also save texture memory, I think). | (Unknown) | * Clients are able to define their own colors, and removing the ability to would cause accessibility issues (Colorblind users). --AAA 13:30, 7 August 2007 (EDT) | LionsPhil | (Old) |
Allow a small decal on the back of the top of the tank. (think Half-Life's customizable spraypaint). Possibly also apply it to any held flag? | (Unknown) | LionsPhil | (Old) | |
I'd like to see something more interesting done with the sky... maybe there could be a little ufo (easter egg) that would fly around occasionally? Tux on a ufo! ;) | (Unknown) | This is up to servers. --AAA 13:30, 7 August 2007 (EDT) | YHARG | (Old) |
Flag decals: Each flag would have a little icon/decal showing it's type ONLY when held by a player. It's kind of nice to be able to surprise people with an undercover shockwave, but doesn't make sense to have to right click (identify) or check the user list to see what flag someone has. | (Unknown) | YHARG | (Old) | |
Background music! : (This can be done with an external media player so it shouldn't be the heighest priority, It would be nice to be able to control your music from within BzFlag) | (Unknown) | More usefully, you could just map key combinations to commands, rather than wasting time supporting all the various music players on every OS BZFlag supports. I don't know whether that would work so well on Windows, though. --77.97.207.100 10:14, 30 May 2007 (EDT) | YHARG | (Old) |
List Server and Other Global Services
Idea | Status | Commentary | Submitter | Date |
---|---|---|---|---|
Multiple list servers, in case bzflag.org goes down (as it happened around feb. 15. 2004) | In progress | * Of course someone would need to pay for it. --BinarySpike 18:10, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
|
abli | (Old) |